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Andy Hertzfeld talks Folklore, open source & Apple
February 25, 2004 - 07:09 PST
by Dennis Sellers - Andy Hertzfeld, who wrote much of the original Mac operating system, is still heavily involved in technology and Macs. When it comes to the latter, he's both a historian and a fan. Hertzfeld is also an advocate of the open source movement. He started at Apple in August 1979 as Apple employee #435. He worked on the core operating system and the User Interface toolbox, as well as most of the original desk accessories. After leaving Apple he went on to co-found three companies: Radius (1986), General Magic (1990) and Eazel (1999).
Most of Hertzfeld's time is spent on his Folklore project, which involves writing Web software for collective storytelling, and using it to tell anecdotes—LOTS of anecdotes—about the original Mac development. The site is driven by a database that he plans to release as free software in the near future. O'Reilly will publish the Mac anecdotes in a book later this year.
Hertzfeld is also involved with Mitch Kapor's Open Source Applications Foundation (OSAF), an organization whose goal is to "create and gain wide adoption of Open Source application software of uncompromising quality." At OSAF, he's working on a personal information manager called Chandler, which is intended for use in everyday information and communication tasks. He spent most of 2002 and the first half of 2003 volunteering with OSAF, but has taken a hiatus to focus on finishing Folklore.
Hertzfeld's interest in the Mac is far from limited to its early history and Folklore, however. He has a house full of Macs and feels good overall about Apple's current status.
"The company has been doing much better since Steve Jobs returned, obviously," he told MacMinute. "Some of my favorite recent products have been Airport, the Cinema Display, the iPod and the G5. Unfortunately, I still think they're trapped in a difficult position with respect to being a non-mainstream platform with a shrinking market share, becoming even more vertical and niche-like over time. Their greatest strengths are their drive to innovate and their great design skills. Their software is more of a mixed bag these days, doing some things superbly and others not very well."
Over the next 5-10 years, Hertzfield hopes Apple continues in the direction of the iPod and makes a wide range of products that people use in their living rooms. He also hopes the company will pioneer newer markets that don't have the limitations of the personal computer market. Hertzfeld thinks Apple will continue to do well as long as Steve Jobs sticks around. He also thinks Apple may have a window of opportunity to expand its computer market share, as he foresees the Windows monopoly disintegrating over the next five years.
"The process is already well underway, and you'll see it first oversea in places like China and India," Hertzfeld says. "It won't be replaced by another monopoly; instead, the common system software foundation will be based on open source software that is owned by the public and open to innovation at every level. There is the potential for a much more healthy computer industry, and I believe it's really going to happen before the end of the decade. Depending on how Apple plays it during the transition, they could remain a niche, boutique-type player, or they could finally escape their ghetto and become mainstream. It will be interesting to see what happens."
He describes his current relationship with Apple as "mainly that of a happy customer." Hertzfeld's work system is a dual Power Mac G5 with 3GB of RAM that's hooked up to a 22-inch Cinema Display. His family also has a Cube, an iMac G4 and four PowerBooks.
Occasionally, Hertzfeld runs into Jobs in Palo Alto, California, or talks with him on the phone once or twice a year. Some of his friends still work at Apple; in fact, most of the Safari team came from his former start-up, Eazel, and a lot of the iPod team used to work at General Magic, Hertzfeld says. Still, he has no desire to return to work at Apple.
"I don't think I could survive there," Hertzfeld says. "I am too used to working for myself."
As for the future of the company, he hopes Apple continues "to be the strong advocate of the user and continues to put the user at the center of their thinking."
"Obviously, they need to continue to innovate," Hertzfeld says. "And I'd like to see their software escape the confines of their boxes, and run on Intel chips under Windows and Linux."
(This is another in our series of interviews with people influential in the development of the Mac over the past 20 years. Other stories with some of the original Mac team include:
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